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#11. Posted:
speed
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ObscureCoder wrote Tell me all about your front-end 'developments'. What's your job title?
You also kinda made your post redundant the second you mentioned "experienced" and "anywhere worth working for".

Nonetheless, tell me what you do.


I'm a Systems Analyst/Programmer for a multi-billion dollar (Fortune 100) company.

I'm not a front-end developer myself, nor would I ever want to be. However, I can tell you that an entry-level programmer start at $25/hr in my company, which is the second lowest starting salary (just above SQA) in my department.

Now tell me about yourself.
#12. Posted:
ObscureCoder
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speed wrote
ObscureCoder wrote Tell me all about your front-end 'developments'. What's your job title?
You also kinda made your post redundant the second you mentioned "experienced" and "anywhere worth working for".

Nonetheless, tell me what you do.


I'm a Systems Analyst/Programmer for a multi-billion dollar (Fortune 100) company.

I'm not a front-end developer myself, nor would I ever want to be. However, I can tell you that an entry-level programmer start at $25/hr in my company, which is the second lowest starting salary (just above SQA) in my department.

Now tell me about yourself.


Web designers, the people who effectively do front-end work, aren't what I'd consider as programmers. What you've done is list a different career and then a lower salary than the one being discussed. To be honest, I think using the word "developer" when referring to front-end work is rather grandiose unless it's specifically involves JavaScript work (which it doesn't always). My estimate is that the web design (emphasis on 'design') will be a dead industry in around 10 years. We're creating tools and systems that essentially make their job redundant. Either way, the average salary for a web designer (who's employed by a company - not freelancing) falls below $30/hr. Regardless of the starting salary in the department you work for, it's not that way elsewhere. My calculations, based off a good starting salary in the UK at £24,000 (equiv. $36,838) annually places it at around £11/hr ($18/hr).
#13. Posted:
speed
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ObscureCoder wrote Web designers, the people who effectively do front-end work, aren't what I'd consider as programmers. What you've done is list a different career and then a lower salary than the one being discussed.


Nor I. However, I'm not the one that makes the job titles.

In my company, "programmers" cover a wide variety of development, front end being one of them. The team you are on determines what you will be doing. Here, an entry level programmer will earn around $30/hr in two years or less, assuming they aren't promoted by that time.

Now, I realize this obviously is not true for every company in the world, but to say that a front end developer does "not even slightly" make $30 is fairly inaccurate, especially in the context of this topic (OP is essentially looking for a freelancer).
#14. Posted:
5FDP_Jekyll
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ObscureCoder, speed is indeed correct about the amount of money that programmers/web designers make. All of the necessary information can be found at [ Register or Signin to view external links. ]

Now for sake for easiness I'll link you to both articles for the designated careers.
Web Developers: [ Register or Signin to view external links. ]

Computer Programmer: [ Register or Signin to view external links. ]

Now as you can see according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, both occupations make an average of $30+ an hour. Web Developers at $30.05 and Programmers at $35.71. Yes I do realize the data is a bit dated, however one can estimate that based off of job growth and need, the average salary would still be around the same, if not more.
#15. Posted:
ObscureCoder
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5FDP_Jekyll wrote ObscureCoder, speed is indeed correct about the amount of money that programmers/web designers make. All of the necessary information can be found at [ Register or Signin to view external links. ]

Now for sake for easiness I'll link you to both articles for the designated careers.
Web Developers: [ Register or Signin to view external links. ]

Computer Programmer: [ Register or Signin to view external links. ]

Now as you can see according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, both occupations make an average of $30+ an hour. Web Developers at $30.05 and Programmers at $35.71. Yes I do realize the data is a bit dated, however one can estimate that based off of job growth and need, the average salary would still be around the same, if not more.


Now as you can see, web developers and computer programmers are not web designers. Web developers tend to focus on the back-end part of websites, where as programmers can do anything since programming itself is quite a large field. A lot of front-end work doesn't include any programming or 'development' (excluding JavaScript).

I'm talking about front-end work, not back-end work. I'm talking exclusively about front-end work. Web developers tend to do back-end work. Please actually read who I was responding to since it's clear that you see no difference between front-end 'developer' and web developer. Lemme break it down for you:

Web designer - this usually entails front-end creation of sites using HTML, CSS and occasional JS.

Web developer - someone who does back-end website work. Sometimes they may endeavour and do front-end work however, their skillset falls further than just HTML, CSS, (and possible JS, though not required in designing at all anymore). They tend to do one of these: PHP, ASP .NET, Java, Python or Ruby. There's a lot more languages used.

Front-end developer - essentially the same thing as a web designer except they use the grandiose term of "developer" to make themselves sound important - in most cases anyway. You can only really use the word "developer" if you do client-side JavaScript or focus on doing the job of a UX engineer along with designing shit.

Since the person I was initially replying to, Whosfable, mentioned front-end work I was talking about front-end work (where if you correctly think "web designer" then you'll realize that they make less than $30/hr). To be honest, a lot of web designers actually become developers by working and eventually learning through experience how to program back-end systems effectively.

So, no, you're both wrong. Web developers tend to do a lot more than just front-end shit. Though, the career for someone who does front-end work exclusively is web designer (this field is almost dead though for reasons relating to 'frameworks' that are now a cop-out for lazy web designers - thus quite literally everyone who's learning from places like codeacademy, treehouse, aren't actually learning how to do well in their supposed field -- but that's a whole other issue that would take to long to explain fully).

Also, anyone with any knowledge of the web development field would have literally lost all faith in your knowledge upon reading your rather incorrect use of forward slashes: "programmers/web designers". They're not the same thing. Web designing is not programming (unless you mention JavaScript. However, that's grown as a language since Google really stretched V8 so now you can quite literally program client side shit for websites, server side applications, desktop applications and even mobile phone applications).

This should help:
[ Register or Signin to view external links. ]

As I've already said though, $5 hour is substantially less than any web designer would be paid.
#16. Posted:
5FDP_Jekyll
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ObscureCoder wrote
5FDP_Jekyll wrote ObscureCoder, speed is indeed correct about the amount of money that programmers/web designers make. All of the necessary information can be found at [ Register or Signin to view external links. ]

Now for sake for easiness I'll link you to both articles for the designated careers.
Web Developers: [ Register or Signin to view external links. ]

Computer Programmer: [ Register or Signin to view external links. ]

Now as you can see according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, both occupations make an average of $30+ an hour. Web Developers at $30.05 and Programmers at $35.71. Yes I do realize the data is a bit dated, however one can estimate that based off of job growth and need, the average salary would still be around the same, if not more.


Now as you can see, web developers and computer programmers are not web designers. Web developers tend to focus on the back-end part of websites, where as programmers can do anything since programming itself is quite a large field. A lot of front-end work doesn't include any programming or 'development' (excluding JavaScript).

I'm talking about front-end work, not back-end work. I'm talking exclusively about front-end work. Web developers tend to do back-end work. Please actually read who I was responding to since it's clear that you see no difference between front-end 'developer' and web developer. Lemme break it down for you:

Web designer - this usually entails front-end creation of sites using HTML, CSS and occasional JS.

Web developer - someone who does back-end website work. Sometimes they may endeavour and do front-end work however, their skillset falls further than just HTML, CSS, (and possible JS, though not required in designing at all anymore). They tend to do one of these: PHP, ASP .NET, Java, Python or Ruby. There's a lot more languages used.

Front-end developer - essentially the same thing as a web designer except they use the grandiose term of "developer" to make themselves sound important - in most cases anyway. You can only really use the word "developer" if you do client-side JavaScript or focus on doing the job of a UX engineer along with designing shit.

Since the person I was initially replying to, Whosfable, mentioned front-end work I was talking about front-end work (where if you correctly think "web designer" then you'll realize that they make less than $30/hr). To be honest, a lot of web designers actually become developers by working and eventually learning through experience how to program back-end systems effectively.

So, no, you're both wrong. Web developers tend to do a lot more than just front-end shit. Though, the career for someone who does front-end work exclusively is web designer (this field is almost dead though for reasons relating to 'frameworks' that are now a cop-out for lazy web designers - thus quite literally everyone who's learning from places like codeacademy, treehouse, aren't actually learning how to do well in their supposed field -- but that's a whole other issue that would take to long to explain fully).

Also, anyone with any knowledge of the web development field would have literally lost all faith in your knowledge upon reading your rather incorrect use of forward slashes: "programmers/web designers". They're not the same thing. Web designing is not programming (unless you mention JavaScript. However, that's grown as a language since Google really stretched V8 so now you can quite literally program client side shit for websites, server side applications, desktop applications and even mobile phone applications).

This should help:
[ Register or Signin to view external links. ]

As I've already said though, $5 hour is substantially less than any web designer would be paid.
Hmm, I can see your point about the differences. I'll be honest, I don't really know much about the differences between "front-end" and "back-end" work. However, as for the incorrect use of slashes, I was using them for an "or." As in pass/fail. Obviously two different things, but use the same slash as I did and is grammatically correct. While I am being honest, I do not claim to have much experience programming. Indeed I only have a bit as I did it in some of my spare time. However, currently I am taking a class for Java as my major for Physics Research requires me to take the course, in which I find it quite an easy class.

As for the original writing about the amount that the OP would pay, I as well agree with you on that. That is far less than what any designer or developer would get paid, even at starting salary.
#17. Posted:
speed
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Obscure,

Do you even read your posts before you put them out, or are you just so blindly convinced that you can never be wrong that you can't resist making yourself look like an idiot on the forums?

You're so pedantic in your posts that I'm really questioning whether you have any real world experience whatsoever (also, because you neglected to tell about your own job). If you did, you would know that these "definitions" are so interchangeable in the job market that the definition becomes completely irrelevant. In 3 different companies, a programmer, front end developer, and website designer can literally have the same job.

But instead of acknowledging this fact, you continue to change your argument. You're not even arguing the original point anymore, you're just being extremely pedantic for the sake of "being right". I'm truly embarrassed for you.

This argument is going nowhere.
Closed.
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