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Thor's Fireside Chats #1-3
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Thor's Fireside Chats #1-3Posted:

iThorHD
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Joined: Jun 20, 201112Year Member
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Status: Offline
Joined: Jun 20, 201112Year Member
Posts: 352
Reputation Power: 29
There are a lot of topics covered here today, as this is a combination of the first three I wrote. Here's a quick breakdown, and don't feel like you have to read the whole thing lol. Just read a part or section that interests you.

Number 1 - CPU's - 07-08-2011 (Still completely relevant)
Number 2 - Microstuttering & new PSU's - 09-19-2011 (Still very relevant, not much has changed)
Number 3 - PCI-E 3.0 Performance, Newegg vs iBuypower vs Others, Graphics King - From 03-29-2012 (Still up to date)

First time explanation:
This threads, and future Fireside chats is me talking to you guys about topics I feel need to be covered to allow more people to grow in their computer knowledge, and to settle certain beliefs and misconceptions. I also want to answer your questions, so ask whatever you're thinking The inspiration for these (US history reference) are [ Register or Signin to view external links. ] during his time of governor and president. I'll try to make the beginning of each one sound like FDR's talks. I did for the first one, and then didn't again.

Number 1

Topic: On CPU's
FDR's Fireside Chat #1: [ Register or Signin to view external links. ] (Check it out and read the beginning of the transcript, I tried to make my first paragraph just like the beginning).

Good evening, friends. I want to take for a few minutes with the people of TTG about CPU's - with the comparatively few who understand the mechanics of CPU's but more particularly with the overwhelming majority who use CPU's for gaming and general use.

First off it would be nice for use to have a basis of what a CPU is, so I'll borrow what I wrote from my PC guide (here).
The CPU or the central-processing unit, is the what carries out the instructions that computer programs send it, and easily perform basic arithmetical, logical, and input/output operations. CPU's are sorted into sockets, which are a mechanical components that provide mechanical and electrical connections between the CPU and motherboard.

First thing I want to talk to you guys about is determining what makes CPU's better than others. Many people would say "MOAR MEGAHERTZ!@!", well sure in some cases a higher operating frequency (rate in cycles per second at which a computer performs basic functions like adding two numbers or moving a value from one register to another) is better, but this really only works when comparing processors with the same architecture and family. Here's an example, the AMD Athlon II x4 640 is a quad core processor that runs at 3.0GHz, the Intel i5-2300 which is a quad core processor that runs at 2.8GHz. Which one runs faster? The 2300. Why, because it's not all about the operating frequency, which really is probably one of the smaller factors of determining the performance of a CPU. So how do you determine what CPU is the best for you? Well the easiest thing is to read reviews (not Newegg reviews) from sites like AnandTech, Overclock3D, Benchmark Reviews, there are just so many good sites. The other thing you can look at is the cache, it doesn't effect how fast the processor runs, but it can have a big effect on the overall speed of your system. Cache is extremely fast, but relatively expensive memory which the chip has direct access rather than storing some things on the slower RAM. However like the operating frequency, it isn't the end all be all for CPU performance.

What's the difference between CPU's then, well it's all about the core architecture and the technology that goes into the chip. The Intel and AMD chips now differ a huge amount, so you can't compare them looking only at the technologies easily. So, like I said before, the easiest way to see the performance of these chips is to look at professional reviews, not random Youtube reviews and certainly not Newegg reviews since a rare few are done correctly.

That's really all for today (it's late, and in future threads there maybe more). Now feel free to discuss and ask questions!

Number 2

Crossfire and SLI: A look at how it works & Micro-stuttering in the latest setups
First we should talk about how crossfire and SLI actually share the load. The technology is called AFR, or Alternate-Frame Rendering. What this basically means is that each frame is rendered completely by separate cards. However to have a smooth and stutter free frame-rate the workload would have to be more or less equal, and the graphics card identical or similar. So when combining a fast and slow card the workload becomes imbalanced, and bad things happen. You encounter a lot of the problems with the fact that card #1 renders the first frame, while card #2 renders the second frame, but the problem comes from the fact that the frame has to be sent from the second card to the buffer of the first which sends the image to the monitor. And in the real world, little things cause the cards not to perform perfectly the same. And all this causes micro-stuttering which becomes a problem for the team working on the drivers, who try to balance raw frame rates with smooth frame rates.

So have the problems with micro-stuttering improved over the years? Yes. Are they completely fixed? No. Single cards still are the best solution for preventing micro-stuttering; however, I should specify that this really only applies to single GPU single cards. Dual GPU solutions on a single card still suffer from micro-stuttering Just about the same as a dual card setup. However, the levels of the micro-stuttering actually very greatly depends on the brand: AMD or NVIDIA (specific cards to vary to some degree).

First let's look at the micro stuttering for a few dual and single card solutions:

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Here you can see that the single card solutions for both AMD and NVIDIA have little evidence of micro-stuttering, wtih the GTX 560 having slightly larger jumps, but things like this get straightened out in drivers, and will mostly go unnoticed. When we look at the crossfire of the 6870's they do put out the highest frame rates, and an average frame rate above the GTX 560 SLI solution, but the micro-stuttering is often and pronounced. On the other hand the GTX 560's behave closer to a single card solution, providing smaller average FPS, but much less frequently occurring and less severe micro-stuttering. However this doesn't apply to NVIDIA's lower end cards, like the 550 Ti which experiences nasty micro-stuttering, but if you go up the micro-stuttering gets better.

Here's when things get weird, let's look at 3 and four card solutions:

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Suddenly the micro-stuttering problems are greatly reduced, and it seems that either the driver setups for these cards are more focused to prevent micro-stuttering than to put out raw performance. Same thing happens when you get a fourth card involved, you get better performance and less micro-stuttering. So if you can make it happen, a 6870 and a 6870x2 can outperform a GTX 590 for just about the same price (often cheaper), and have much less problems with micro-stuttering. The only other solutions for micro-stuttering are VSYNC (a help, not a fix) and new drivers.

Let's make some conclusions here, first you can't forget that dual cards don't only have problems with micro-stuttering, often non-identical cards don't like to work together and will cause crashes on both sides of the GPU market (you can very often get lucky though), and things can get tricky, and you'll have to hope things work out ideally if someone doesn't already have the same setup. Now, the other thing is that the faster the cards you pair up, the better they'll handle micro-stuttering. This is a bad thing for the buyers of low-end cards who look to save money with dual card solutions. And a triple card solution which works out the kinks certainly isn't cheap. With all this said, and given comparable pricing, I'd go with the single GPU setup, not having to worry about micro-stuttering and problems with multiple cards would be nice.

New OCZ and Rosewill PSU's: Yay or nay?
So OCZ has recently released the ZS series and Rosewill has released the Capstone and Hive series. I'll talk about the OCZ and Rosewill Hive series first. Why these two together you may ask? Because they both share the same platform, Sirtec B14C, but the Rosewill's are modular. If you'd like to see a review of the platform, and specifically the OCZ ZS 550w you can find it [URL="http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=248"]here[/URL]. Remember that PSU's perform very similarly in the same platform, just each offering better wattage and amperage for the most part. Onto the more premium Rosewill Capstone series, these PSU's are fixed cable variants of the SF Golden Green in the 450/550/650/750W. They also look to be very quality power supplies passing up the Hive series, but current reviews are not in English. These are both great options for the budget enthusiast.

Rosewill don't fully deserve their bad reputation. I mean, they did a few years ago, when they were selling crap from Deer, Youngyear, and Wintech that couldn't do their rated wattage. But the new PSU and cases have been quality lately. However, don't assume all of the PSU's are so nice automatically always do your research.


Number 3

Newegg vs. CyberPower vs. iBuyPower

Well I was personally wondering really how much you save or don't save from buying the parts yourself, so I was like, well let's just fine out.

Here's a few things to note, these aren't some ideal builds I picked out, they're mostly picked because the sites had the same things. So here's what I found:

Build 1

  • Newegg - $720
  • CyberPower - $838
  • iBuyPower - $979

Specs
NZXT Source 210
Western Digital 1TB
Kingston HyperX 16GB 1600
Corsair CWCH60
24x DVD Player
MSI A75MA-G55
AMD 6670
Corsair TX650
AMD A8-3870K


Build 2


  • Newegg - $1406
  • CyberPower - $1548
  • iBuyPower - $1528
  • FalconPC - $2000

Specs
Cooler Master HAF 912
Western Digital 1TB Blue
Kingston HyperX 16GB 1600
Corsair CWCH60
12x Blu-ray Combo Reader
Corsair Force 3 60GB SSD
GTX 560 TI
Corsair AX750
ASUS P8Z68-V Pro
Intel 2600K



Build 3

  • Newegg - $2336
  • CyberPower - $2499
  • iBuyPower - $2513
  • FalconPC - $3200

Specs
NZXT Switch 810
Western Digital 1TB Blue
Asus Xonar DX
Corsair AX850
Kingston HyperX 16GB 1600
Asus P9X79 Deluxe
Intel I7 3930K
Corsair CWCH60
12x Blu-ray Combo Reader
Corsair Force 3 60GB SSD
GTX 680


Conclusion
Well there is a few things to talk about first, building your own PC will almost always be cheaper, unless you get some major sales. And I think these results are a bit skewed too, when your building your own it's easy to shop across different stores finding lower prices, and you'll be able to select each individual part often which aren't offered on these sites, which can be cheaper and better, plus the boutiques were running March Madness sales on a few of the items we used. Obviously the high end boutiques like FalconPC are well, really not worth it, and CyberPowerPC, and iBuyPower pretty much cost the same. Either company is fine if that is really what you want to go with it, but you won't get the experience, the savings, or the choice building your own PC offers.

PCI-E 3.0 and Video Card Performance
Well we've started to see the new PCI-E 3.0 cards coming out, and I just wanted to address the bandwidth of motherboard lanes. A few things to remember, PCI-E technologies are backwards compatible, so you can use PCI-E 3.0 card on a PCI-E 2.0 motherboard, or a PCI-E 2.0 card on a PCI-E 3.0 motherboard, and so forth going further down.

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As of right now, there is pretty much no difference. The small changes are just margins of error, and have no significance, so basically the new cards like the 7970 in a single card setup don't' need PCI-E 3.0. For SLI and Crossfire, there may be a small, change, but I'm fairly confident that PCI-E 2.0 bandwidth can handle new high end multiple cards (two, probably not three).

The New Performance King
Well AMD and NVIDIA have both launched their new flagship cards, the 7970 and the GTX 680. The GTX 680 is the clear winner, better performance, power consumption, lower fan noise, and a lower price to boot. Now we'll see the cards of Kepler and Southern Island trickle out into the low and mid-range performance categories and soon we can find the best new cards for the money.

That's all for today guys, but bring on the questions. I'm happy to answer them.

The following 3 users thanked iThorHD for this useful post:

vadermarley (08-04-2012), -vR-Matas- (06-08-2012), r00t (06-08-2012)
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