002 wrote

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Continuous wrote

Solus wrote

002 wrote

Solus wrote

002 wrote Ok, so I'm 18 years old but I identify as a 21 year old. Should I be allowed to smoke pot (legal at 21 in my state), drink alcohol, and buy a pistol? Should my 40 some-odd year old aunt be able to get social security benefits because she identifies as a 70 year old? The answer is no, just like if a male identifies as a female he still should not be going into a female's changing room or bathroom. Plain and simple.

That is not a very good analogy.
We have just shown you why a person can think that they are and be the opposite gender.
You can not be physically or psychologically older than you are.
You can be the opposite gender to what you currently are, both physically and psychologically.

Until scientists invent a hormone or surgery which ages either your brain or body respectively, you can not be older than you are.

It's a perfect analogy. How can you say that I cannot physically feel older than I am? This argument is about boys feeling like girls and girls feeling like boys, so why can't I feel older than I am? If they get to use the opposite sex bathroom, I get to drink alcohol before 21.

You cannot make your body older than it is, just like you where born a boy or a girl. You don't just wake up 1 day and think "hey, I'm a girl".

I'm sorry but you are simply refusing to see the facts here.
You are purposefully taking words like 'feeling' -words for which we have already explained how someone could come to feel like they should be the opposite gender - and are trying to make them sound like shallow throw away words. Like, "well it's just a feeling. I could feel like a rabbit."

Yes, you could feel like you are supposed to be older than you are, but until you come up with a scientific reason for that feeling, you are mentally ill.

The same cannot be said for transgenders because there is a scientific basis for their 'feelings' and that is where your analogy fails.

Your last point is proving that you are not engaging with what we are saying at all.
You want transgender people to fit your view of waking up one morning and thinking "hey I'll be the opposite gender today because reasons that are completely superfluous!"
Do you honestly think that is how it happens?

Do you not think that there is more detail and nuance to a person making that decision than the level that you are trying to strip it down to just for the sake of having an easily defensible position?

What "scientific" basis is their for the "feelings" of a transgender? I agree with 002.

I'll tell you what scientific basis there is, oh wait, there is none. You and I both know that haha. An outside person, no matter how much college education they have, can know how me, you, or your best friend "feels". Trust me, at the point that they can know how you feel, there would be no "medical mysterys".

Continuous wrote What "scientific" basis is their for the "feelings" of a transgender? I agree with 002.

I am glad you asked.

Here is a list of some of the differences between transgender people and 'regular' people that explain their behavior scientifically that I found after a quick Google search.

1) Genetic differences in the brain. [There were actually about 20 different studies showing this existed, this was the easiest one to understand, so I will let it speak for itself.]

A 2008 study compared 112 male-to-female transsexuals (both androphilic and gynephilic), mostly already undergoing hormone treatment, with 258 cisgender male controls. Male-to-female transsexuals were more likely than cisgender males to have a longer version of a receptor gene (longer repetitions of the gene) for the sex hormone androgen or testosterone, which reduced its effectiveness at binding testosterone.[2] The androgen receptor (NR3C4) is activated by the binding of testosterone or dihydrotestosterone, where it plays a critical role in the forming of primary and secondary male sex characteristics. The research suggests reduced androgen and androgen signaling contributes to the female gender identity of male to female transsexuals. The authors say that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might prevent complete masculinization of the brain in male to female transsexuals and thereby cause a more feminized brain and a female gender identity

A quote from the very first line of this study: There is a likely genetic component to transsexualism, and genes involved in sex steroidogenesis are good candidates.

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2) Transgender groups, when shown erotic imagery, will light up different parts of their brain than a cisgender control group when being given an fMRI scan.
Male to Female transgender people were closer to lighting up the same spots as the female control group than the male control group.
From the same study, quote: "androphilic transsexuals are halfway between the patterns exhibited by male and female controls"
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3) Another study simply compared transgender brains to cisgender brains, none of the transgender people were on hormone therapy when this study was conducted, and this is what the study concluded:
The observed differences between MtF-TR and controls raise the question as to whether gender dysphoria may be associated with changes in multiple structures and involve a network (rather than a single nodal area)
Science has moved past the question of whether or not transgender brains are even different. They know that they are, they are just trying to work out HOW different now.
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4) They have compared the white matter in brains of transgender and cisgender people, here is a quote from the conclusion of one study on this subject:
Our results show that the white matter microstructure pattern in untreated FtM transsexuals is closer to the pattern of subjects who share their gender identity (males) than those who share their biological sex (females). Our results provide evidence for an inherent difference in the brain structure of FtM transsexuals.
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[No, you do not have to buy that article to see for yourself, just scroll down a little bit and it is right there.]

5) A study was done on transgenderism among twins.
This study used a lot of big words, so I will try to simplify it for the sake of ease.
They looked at both identical twins who had been raised in the same home at the same time, and non-identical twins who had been raised in the same home at the same time.
All of the twins involved in this study had at least one transgender person in every pair.
33% of the identical twins were both transgender, that is 13 out of 39. Only 1 pair of twins in 38 from the non-identical group were both transgender.
A quote from the study: The significant percent of identical twin pairs where both twins are trans, and the virtual absence of dizygotic twins (raised in the same family at the same time, but not genetically identical) where both were trans, provides evidence that transgender identity is significantly influenced by genetics.
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But I can almost guarantee that even after you have been exposed to all of this new knowledge, your opinions about transgender people will not shift in the slightest.
They will still just be creepy weirdos who decide to change their gender one morning because they "feel" like it.
I really want to be wrong about this prediction, but only time will tell.

If you want to debate the meaning of 'feelings' then that is fine.
You give me the scientific evidence for why your brain structure and genetics does not make you 'feel' like a male.

And yes, 002, an outside person can know how you feel if you tell people how you feel.
Transgender people are telling us that they feel like they are the wrong gender. Your question should be 'Why do they feel like that?'
This is why the fields of neuroscience and psychology exist. Not to work out what people are feeling, but why they are feeling it.

I can give you quotes of "scientists" saying that this is all BS but at the end of the day, there are thousands of scientists, all of which have differing opinions.

When I hear someone say "yeah I'm a guy buy I identify as a girl", I hear your BS story of you're gay but you don't want to say it.

Let's look past that. We as humans made these things called "social norms". This is where one race, one age group, one sex, what ever, is predominately supposed to do one thing or another. Just because a guy would rather cook or clean or do something that is looked at as a women job (don't go through the trouble of telling me many men are chefs and this, I know, just throwing examples out there) instead of working construction or something that they are "supposed" to do as a male does not mean he is a women. He only knows what a mans feelings are because that's what he has, he's never been a women so he is a man. Yes he may like to do things females do and dislike things guys do, what ever, that's fine, but you're still a guy.

Bobby has a penis and testicles. Bobby does not have breasts that produce milk, Bobby cannot birth a child, Bobby does not have a vagina. Bobby is a guy. Bobby does not like anything the typical guy does but loves everything the typical girl does. Bobby is still a guy.

Suzy has breasts that produce milk, can birth a child, and has menstrual cycles. Suzy does not have a penis, or testicles. Suzy is a girl. Suzy does not like to do anything the typical girl likes to do but loves to do everything the typical guy likes to do. Suzy is still a girl.

It is really not that hard, what we as humans have a problem with is the label of male of female. As a male you are expected to be the one to work a hard job say on a farm or construction or something. As a female, you are expected you raise the children, cook the food, and clean the house. Roles are reversing where more and more dads are raising the children, cooking and cleaning, and the women are out working. Now all of the sudden we thing, well damn, I kinda enjoy cleaning the house and raising the kids. Since this is what a female was raised to think, I must be a female.

Take the labels out of it and look down your pants. Your genitals don't lie unless you have both.

002 wrote I can give you quotes of "scientists" saying that this is all BS but at the end of the day, there are thousands of scientists, all of which have differing opinions.

When I hear someone say "yeah I'm a guy buy I identify as a girl", I hear your BS story of you're gay but you don't want to say it.

Let's look past that. We as humans made these things called "social norms". This is where one race, one age group, one sex, what ever, is predominately supposed to do one thing or another. Just because a guy would rather cook or clean or do something that is looked at as a women job (don't go through the trouble of telling me many men are chefs and this, I know, just throwing examples out there) instead of working construction or something that they are "supposed" to do as a male does not mean he is a women. He only knows what a mans feelings are because that's what he has, he's never been a women so he is a man. Yes he may like to do things females do and dislike things guys do, what ever, that's fine, but you're still a guy.

Bobby has a penis and testicles. Bobby does not have breasts that produce milk, Bobby cannot birth a child, Bobby does not have a vagina. Bobby is a guy. Bobby does not like anything the typical guy does but loves everything the typical girl does. Bobby is still a guy.

Suzy has breasts that produce milk, can birth a child, and has menstrual cycles. Suzy does not have a penis, or testicles. Suzy is a girl. Suzy does not like to do anything the typical girl likes to do but loves to do everything the typical guy likes to do. Suzy is still a girl.

It is really not that hard, what we as humans have a problem with is the label of male of female. As a male you are expected to be the one to work a hard job say on a farm or construction or something. As a female, you are expected you raise the children, cook the food, and clean the house. Roles are reversing where more and more dads are raising the children, cooking and cleaning, and the women are out working. Now all of the sudden we thing, well damn, I kinda enjoy cleaning the house and raising the kids. Since this is what a female was raised to think, I must be a female.

Take the labels out of it and look down your pants. Your genitals don't lie unless you have both.

The science in this issue is integral to understanding my position and my position rests on the science.
Genitals are not the only thing that make you a male or female, your brain structure does too.
You have chosen the science of the physical body to represent your arguments with, but are shutting down any debate about the cognitive influences on transgenderism.

There are two problems that I can see with doing that.

1) The science is out there, both for and against the idea that transgenderism is based on genetic factors, brain structure, etc.
We could potentially come to an agreement about how far those studies reach into this issue and how much knowledge they can provide, but that is not being allowed to occur.

2) You are essentially saying that the jury is still out on cognitive behavioral factors.
To continue the court metaphor, saying that transgender people cannot feel like the opposite gender while the jury is still out is like the judge in a court room sentencing the defendant to death before the jury has even finished their deliberations.
At the very least you should suspend your character judgments on transgender people until you feel like the cognitive science is at the level where you can support the statement that cognitive function has nothing to do with it.

I take the point that the jury is still out and so I will suspend judgement on transgender people until they return.
I view it more as an murder trial where the suspect was found covered in blood with the weapon in his hand, whereas you obviously view it more like the suspect was in a different town at the time and one witness gave their name to the police but has refused to give a testimony against the defendant.
That is to say, I think the evidence is leaning in my favor, and you think it is leaning in yours.
But if you are saying that the cognitive science behind transgenderism is inconclusive, you should be agnostic in how you view them as people, this is all I am advocating for.


Other than that, I have reached an impasse in this debate.

At the end of the day I really don't care if you can't figure out if you're a boy or a girl. My issue comes in when a person who physically identifies as a man wants to call himself a girl and use the womens restrooms / changing rooms. That is 100% wrong, just like a women thinking she is a man and using a mans restroom / changing room. That is my issue. If this was not happening, I wouldn't be so against trans gender as I view it much in the same way I view homosexuality. It's your "problem" as some would say, and not mine. when someone wants to go in the bathroom meant for the opposite sex, that is my problem and I will fight it.